Talking Europe interviews Jo?o Gomes Cravinho, Portugal’s top diplomat. He discusses whether Portugal’s ally, Brazil, could have a role to play in talks between Ukraine and Russia one day – this after the president of Brazil, which has not imposed sanctions on Russia, nor sent ammunition to Kyiv, called for a negotiated settlement. President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva recently visited Portugal as part of a European diplomatic tour. Cravinho also talks about EU and NATO support to Ukraine, as well as Portugal’s relations with China in the light of how Lisbon approaches the questions of both Macau and Taiwan.
On Lula’s pitch for a negotiated solution, Cravinho says: “Unfortunately, this is not a moment when we can be optimistic about any negotiations. But it is important that countries such as Brazil, such as China, such as India, that have an ongoing dialogue with Russia, engage with Russia in order to explain that Russia is going to have to find a way out of the mess it has created. This was very much part of our conversation with President Lula (of Brazil) when he was in Portugal.”
Cravinho goes on: “There is a concern that some countries have that it’s necessary to find some kind of mechanism that helps Russia out. Our view is that, as Europeans, what we have to be doing is supporting Ukraine in order to demonstrate very clearly that if Russia doesn’t find this solution for itself, it will face defeat on the battlefield.”
On whether Portugal, a founding member of NATO, believes that Ukraine should join the Atlantic Alliance, Cravinho responds: “In 2008 there was a deep discussion about whether Ukraine should join. Back then the predominant idea was that Ukraine joining NATO would be a provocation to Russia. Of course that idea has been overtaken by events. I don’t think anyone is looking at the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO while there is a war going on. But after the war it’s a question that we should all be deliberating.”
Cravinho turns to the issue of Macau, which was a Portuguese territory but became part of China in 1999. “Portuguese law applies in Macau and it can be renewed after the current 50-year period,” he explains. “We’re not 100 percent satisfied, but overall we believe that the Basic Law has made a very important contribution to Macau being what it is.”
Asked about the reports of human rights abuses in Macau, which the US State Department calls “credible”, Cravinho says: “These are matters we’ve been able to discuss with the authorities. I think one has to look at the global picture. One has to look at what is happening in Macau overall, what the reality of China is, and whether we do, in effect, have One Country, Two Systems. And I think it’s quite clear that Macau has benefited enormously from this Basic Law, from being part of this different type of system within the context of Chinese sovereignty.”
Asked about Taiwan and the vice-president of Taiwan calling for deeper relations between Taipei and Lisbon, Cravinho asserts: “We are perfectly satisfied with the current status. We believe in the One China policy. And we have no ambiguities with respect to that.”
On the call by Josep Borrell, the EU High Representative for Foreign Policy, to have more warships from EU countries patrolling the Taiwan Strait, Cravinho replies: “We don’t have an infinite amount of ships. We tend to focus on the areas where we think we have value added, which is particularly down the west coast of Africa and the Mediterranean and in the north Atlantic – that’s going to be the priority for Portugal in the coming years.”
Programme produced by Isabelle Romero, Perrine Desplats and Sophie Samaille
